Re: Part one of your thought error
...
From:
Ron
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View Contact
To: marktumandan@yahoo.com.ph
Dear Mike,
You're in denial my friend. The thief on the cross was the perfect example of the "grace" of our Lord Jesus yet this thief was not baptized (another example of His word) Jesus saved this thief by proclaiming that the thief would join him in paradise this day. Now maybe you can ignore this to suit your argument however your argument doesn't stand the test of scripture through this example. God/Jesus/ the Bible does not contradict Himself as God/Christ is perfect. There's no question as to "why" Christ chose to save this dying man. He had the power to do so and he did; it's as simple as that. Your decision to ignore the fact that this thief was not baptized as one of many examples of being saved by "grace" (His grace) alone astounds me.
You mention Hebrews 9:16-17 concerning "wills" which are legal documents of one's desires for their properties and wishes after they have died being used as an example of Moses and the commandments however you neglect verse 15 which reads: "For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
Before I go further I want to note you still have not answered my question "What church do you represent which doctrine of theology are you professing?" You evaded the question. Your church sir should have a zip code an address and in this day in age a website. You're not that old so 33 A.D. doesn't cut it. I will say this, this will be my last e-mail to you without an answer. You know my beliefs based on the webpage yet you remain hidden behind a yahoo account. You will not change my beliefs as they are founded in Christ no matter what you may wish to believe. I find it is you who has chosen to ignore or gloss over scripture to fit your beliefs. Twisting and turning scripture to fit wasn't what Christ intended yet you repeatedly do just that. Christ saved the thief by "grace alone". We are like the thief in that we are born into sin and it's the "grace" through Christ Jesus we are saved.
For those that need a definition of the word "grace" it's: mercy; clemency; a pardon: an act of grace; favor or good will. An undeserved gift or pardon. In the case of Christianity the gift of eternal life.
I see you fit in an number of scriptures that have nothing to do with this topic so I'll go to scripture that does speak to "grace".
Acts 15:11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." Note there is no mention of baptism here. To note further I believe baptism is important however it's NOT what saves anyone.
John 3:16 says: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Note: no mention of "and is baptized".
I guess I should ask if you understand there's different meanings to baptized in the Bible, "baptized in the spirit" "baptized through the blood of Christ" etc. it's not just dunking in water.
There is no verse in the Bible that said “Baptism by water is the outward acknowledgement, a proclamation of faith to those that are present”. Where did you get that statement my friend? If you see it in the Bible, please give me the verse. This is my opinion based on Biblical reading. No one knows the heart of anyone being baptized therefore its an outward proclamation of faith to anyone present. Transformation comes from the heart, true repentance of sin with the acknowledgement that Jesus is Lord and Savior/God's only son. If baptism alone were the only other thing to be done then Rev wouldn't speak of the churches He was displeased with. If baptism were the second requirement that would indeed save you then Jesus wouldn't say "Go away from me you evil doers" to those that did all those things in Jesus' name now would He? The inward transformation is what's needed here and as Christ searches the hearts He will choose who will be saved and who will not be saved. His grace and grace alone saves us. It's his choice to favor us or not. Our behaviors will say whether or not we truly believe Him to be Lord and Savior.
Gotta go; church time,
Ron
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” John 13:34-35
www.christiancommunitychurch.com
----- Original Message -----
From: marktumandan@yahoo.com.ph
To: Ron
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 12:48 AM
Subject: Re: Part one of your thought error
Dear Ron,
Grace, Mercy and Peace be unto you
From God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord
Thank you so much for the time that you spend for our Bible sharing my friend. My friend, there is no verse in the Bible that said “we are saved by grace alone”.
Regarding the theft on the cross, yeah, he was saved that moment for Christ himself said that he (the theft) was saved. We can’t question Christ why was it that the theft was saved.
But, you want us to be like the theft. Even that there is no baptism we are saved? That is not right my friend. The testament is of force after (not before) men are dead,” and that “it is no strength while the testator is liveth.”(Heb. 9:16; 17). Before his death men were to be obedient to the Law of Moses, (Mat.23:2-5). His testament and its forgiveness were yet to begin in Jerusalem, (Luke 24:47; cf.Isa:2:3). The theft on the cross “did not believe that God hath raised Christ (past tense) from the dead”, (Rom. 10:9). Now, however, we must “believe that God hath raised Christ from the dead” in order to be saved.
There is no verse in the Bible that said “Baptism by water is the outward acknowledgement, a proclamation of faith to those that are present”. Where did you get that statement my friend? If you see it in the Bible, please give me the verse.
Did Apostle Paul baptized for a proclamation of faith to those that were present in his time? No, But, Ananias told him, to “repent and baptized and wash away his sins…”
Did the jailer in Philippi also baptized for a proclamation of faith to those that were present in his time? No, but when he heard the word of the Lord he was baptized in order that his sins must be wash away.
Did the Ethiopian baptized in Acts 8:36-38 for a proclamation of faith to those that were present in his time? No, but he was baptized because Christ himself said it in Mark 16:16.
Did the Corinthians were baptized for a proclamation of faith to those that were present in their time? No, but they knew that when one is preaching Christ he is also preaching baptism.
If you are not preaching baptism that it is step for salvation, then you are not truly preaching Christ.
My friend, in the time of Cornelius, when the Holy Spirit fell on him, he was not saved in that situation. But, when he was baptized he was saved.
Holy Spirit baptism never came upon anyone again. This promise had fulfilled its purpose by initiating the Gospel Age and by confirming that both Jews and Gentiles are included in this scope of this new AGE. Jews and Gentiles may receive the forgiveness of sins by faith in Christ when they repent of their sins and submit to him in water baptism. This good news must be proclaimed to “all the world” and “to every creature”. “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved…” (Mark 16:16) (Note Christ never said that He that believeth whether he is baptized or not shall be saved)
In this way, Christ extends the offer of salvation to all men until the end of the time; “And, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world” (Matt. 28:18-20).
Furthermore, Holy Spirit baptism was miraculous event, not a pardon of salvation and a promise while water baptism is act of obedient faith, pardon of salvation and commanded.
My friend, you are always asking what Church I member of. I am member of the true church built by Jesus Christ on 33 A.D where Christ himself promised it in Matt. 16:18 and it fulfilled in Acts 2.
I will give you more information about the true church built by Jesus Christ when I write you again.
THANK YOU AND GOD WILL BLESS YOU WHEN YOU ARE BAPTIZED AND WILL BE ADDED TO HIS CHURCH. “Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.” (Act 2:47).
In Christian LOVE,
Mike
--- On Sun, 4/5/09, Ron
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Part one of your thought error
To: "men mark tumandan"
Date: Sunday, 5 April, 2009, 1:07 AM
You're missing the point here. We are saved by "grace" and "grace" alone. The Bible will not contradict itself. I agree that baptism is important however it does not make one "saved". To your point its a must for salvation; it's not.
Lk 23:41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
Lk 23:42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.’"
Lk 23:43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
Notice here Jesus tells the criminal that he will be with Him in paradise. The criminal was saved by the "grace" of Jesus only. Jesus did not say "too bad you can't get baptized as I've just saved you by "grace" and baptism is the next step towards your salvation.
I've been saved for many years and have had my ups and downs through life. I realized one day that I'd not been baptized so I contacted my former youth pastor who is now a minister in Ohio. My mom is a Baptist and my dad has been in the Christian and Missionary Alliance for many years. Both churches believe in total submersion baptism however Don who was my youth pastor many years ago "sprinkles" Holy water as the Methodist ceremony. I went back to Ohio where I asked Don to baptize me in the Wade and Gatten river. You see mom's idea of "living water" is rivers, lakes, and the ocean. I grew up swinging from a rope placed high on a tree at that river. To me it only seemed right to be Baptized where I'd spent my youth during summers swinging from that tree rope. The place was of my choosing, the honor for the method of my baptism was to my mom and dad. The minister was historical to my past as he got to see the fruit of his ministry to me as a former youth in his care. Had I died before the baptism I would have still been in the book of Life as Jesus saves by His grace and His grace alone. This verse you quoted,
According to Galatians 3:27, when "one baptized into Christ". Therefore, men are called "into grace of Christ" when they are "baptized into Christ" goes on to say, "for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." It's not talking about the literal sense of the word here it's the complete transformation of Christ in their lives. Baptized by the spirit would be a better reference here my friend. Mk 1:8 I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." The key here is "Baptized INTO Christ". Baptism by water is the outward acknowledgement, a proclamation of faith to those that are present. If this were the key to salvation we wouldn't have so many "Christians in name only" in this world.
What needs to be understood is that one who professes Christ as Lord and Savior will transform through the belief, the hunger and desire to please Him, this washing and becoming anew through the Holy Spirit. Ceremonial cleansing does not do this no more than saying what's referred to as the "sinner's prayer" saves a person. Mt 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Mt 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ There's no doubt in my mind that the people Jesus is talking about got baptized and did all the right ceremonies however their hearts were never transformed, cleansed so to speak by the Holy Spirit for a variety of reasons. They were not saved by "grace"; the grace that only comes through Jesus Christ truly being Lord and Savior in their lives. Nothing these people "did" saved them in these verses.
Back to the criminal on the cross next to Jesus; he says, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." He recognized Jesus as pure, as king of a kingdom and no doubt he felt unworthy to be on a cross next to Him. Jesus knew his heart and through His "grace" saved him.
I've got to go for now,
Take care and God bless you and yours,
Ron
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” John 13:34-35
www.christiancommunitychurch.com
----- Original Message -----
From: men mark tumandan
To: Ron
Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 2:04 AM
Subject: Re: Part one of your thought error
Dear Ron,
Greetings in Peace
I am so thankful for your respond and I am glad to read for I know that you only want to obey what is in the Bible, which is the word of God. Now my friend for your objection:
Paul was astonished because the Galatians were quickly leaving the gospel which preached by the Apostle Paul. Are the Gospel you preach and the gospel preached by Apostle Paul the same? Paul preach that even he or the angel preach any gospel other than the gospel he preached “be accursed” (Gal. 1:8, 9)
My friend, how can a man be in Christ? How does one get into Christ? According to Galatians 3:27, when "one baptized into Christ".
Therefore, men are called "into grace of Christ" when they are "baptized into Christ"
You stated that Even though one will not be baptized he is saved. Are you telling me that a man be saved even though he is not in Christ? The truth is this, if you only believe but not baptized you are not saved.
Remember, my friend, rulers of the synagogue were lost believers.
In Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." There is no need to say “He who does not believe and does not baptized shall be damned" because "He who does not believe is "condemned already". Obviously, if he does not believe, he will not be baptized.
Another example:
1. "He that enrolls and attend class shall be educated, but he that does not
Enroll shall be uneducated" There is no need to say "He who does not
Enroll and does not attend class shall be uneducated" because, he who
Does not enrolls shall be uneducated, obviously, if he does not enroll, he
Will not attend class.
My friend, that is so simple, I will give you more illustration.
Suppose I will read the verse 16 of chapter 16 of Mark, “He that believes is saved..." Am I right? or suppose I will read it, " He that believes whether he is baptized is saved" Am I right again? Certainly not. If it is wrong to read it like that, what make you preach like that? For Mark 16:16 said "He that believes and is baptized will be saved..."
My friend, there were lots of people who believe in Christ yet they were not saved, like the rulers of the synagogue. (John 12:42-43) even the DEVIL SPIRITS in the time of Jesus were believe, that Jesus is the son of God.
In Matt. 8:29 “And, behold, they cried out, saying, what have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? Art thou come hither to torment us before the time?” Mark 1:23-24 “And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? Art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.” In chapter 3 of Mark verse 11 “And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.” And finally in Luke 4:41 “And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
Even the DEVIL SPIRITS believe, my friend, that Jesus is God, Holy ONE of God.
Yes, believing in Jesus Christ is very important, except one believes in Jesus he has no HOPE of salvation (John 8:24). Without faith it is impossible to please Him (Heb. 11:6). Salvation is not by “faith alone” “believing alone” or by “grace alone”.
Saving faith is an obedient faith. Works of human merit can not save us, but when we do by faith what God says, it is the “work of God” (John 6:29). We must walk in the works God has ordained. (Eph. 2:10).
In Acts 2:41 those who gladly receive the word of God were baptized. When one is “Baptized into Christ”, he is baptized, for the remission of sins (Rom 6:4).. People are “baptized into Christ” they are “baptized into one body, the church” (1 Cor.12:13)
My friend, in Acts 2:37-38 when certain men believe that Jesus was “both Lord and Christ” they asked the apostles “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” They were told to “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the NAME of Jesus Christ….”
What is the purpose of repenting and baptized? Let the apostles tell us… “For the remission of sins” Therefore, if one is baptized, the purpose of it is “for the remission of sins”. This was the answer of the Spirit of God.
Before the Apostle Paul was saved he asked “Lord, what wilt thou have me to do” The Lord told him to “go into the city, and it shall be told thee thou must do.” When God sent Ananias unto Paul, he “told” him, “And now why tarries thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins…”
Paul had already believe on the Lord, was indicated by his obeying Jesus command to go into the city; so, he did not need to be told to BELIEVE. Paul had repented of his sins, for he prayed three days and terminated his murderous mission. (Acts: 9:1, 2, 9, 11). Thus, he did not need to be told to “repent”.. Having believed on the Lord and been repented, he was “told” to “Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins…”
If what you preach is true, that man is saved, even though he is not baptized, he is saved even though his sins are not yet forgiven. Man may saved even he is not repented and confess that Christ is son of God.
But, that is not true.
Before the jailer in Philippi was saved he asked “What must I do to be saved?” he was told to, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.” (Acts 16:31-34). But, how faith is produced? Faith comes as a result of HEARING the word of God (Rom. 10:14; 14, 17). “And they spake unto him the word of God.” Since Paul and Silas told the man to believe, it was necessary for them to preach the word so that he might do so. After hearing the word of the Lord, the jailer “rejoiced, believing in God.”
Though it is not specifically stated, it is evident that he repented, too. First, as we have seen, one can’t be saved w/o repentance (Luke24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 17:30; 2 Pet. 3:9). Second the fact that the jailer washed the wounds of Paul and Silas indicates that he had repented. Third, the jailer repented because he “was baptized”. One can’t baptized unless he first repent (Acts 2:38).
What led the jailer to be baptized? All he had heard was “the word of the Lord” Yet, the text says he “was baptized”. Where did he learn about baptism?
Jesus said, “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to all creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
In Samaria, Philip “preached Christ unto them” (Acts 8:5). It is not said that he preached “faith and baptism” but the result of his preaching of “Christ unto them” was that they believed were baptized (Acts 8:12). Evidently, to preach Christ includes baptism.
In Acts 8, when Philip “preached……Jesus” to an Ethiopian, the man asked, “What doth hinder me to be baptized?” In preaching Christ, Philip had preached what Jesus had said about baptism. How else the Ethiopian have known to ask about baptism?
To the Corinthians, Paul had preach nothing except the cross, “Jesus Christ and Him Crucified” (1 Cor. 1:18; 2:2; 4:15). “And many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized” (Acts 18:8). And again, we see that to preach the GOSPEL of Christ is to preach FAITH AND BAPTISM.
Scriptural Subject of baptism is the penitent believers who confess Christ, therefore no infants were baptized in N.T days, only, “men and women” (Acts 8:12). Scriptural mode is immersion. However, a burial is both referred to and described. (Rom. 6:4-5; Acts 8:18-39). Scriptural purpose is “for the remission of sins”. The blood of Christ was shed for the remission of sins (Matt. 26:28).
In baptism we are “baptized into his death”, “baptized into Jesus Christ and thereby put on Christ” and we “put off the body of sins of the flesh in baptism” (Rom. 6:3-4; Col. 2:11-13; Gal.3:27).
The scriptural authority is in the “NAME of the FATHER, and of the SON, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matt. 28:19). There are many baptisms taught by men that differ from this scriptural pattern but they can’t be the “one baptism” of the Bible (Eph. 4:5). That which is in the “name of the Lord” (Acts 10:48) must be by His authority, thus obedience to His commandment.
My friend please answers these questions:
1. If one is saved, even though he is not baptized, he is saved even though his sins are not yet forgiven. (see Acts 22:16; 1 Pet. 3:21)
2. If one is saved, even though he is not baptized, he is saved even though he is not put on Christ. (see Gal. 3:27; Rom. 6:3; 1 Cor. 12:13)
3. If one is saved, even though he is not baptized, he is saved even though he is not being born again. (see John 3:5; Rom. 6:4)
My friend, through BAPTISM, one is put into DEATH of Christ, hence into His blood (Rom. 6:3); one is buried with Christ (Rom. 6:4).
Through baptism we are raised together with Christ (Col. 2:12).
Inasmuch as Christian baptism is “for the remission of sins” or “to wash away sins” and to get “into Christ” or to “put into Christ” and your church where you member of don’t administer Christian baptism, as has just been pointed out, then it follows who obeyed the Christian Community church plan of Salvation have missed the Lord, plan of salvation, and they are therefore not members of the N.T church, the body of Christ, the church of Christ and have not been their sins remitted and are not saved.
My heart’s desire and prayer to God for you and members of the church you belong that you will be saved. It is my sincere prayer that you may open your eyes to the truth and leave the Christian community church which is nowhere found in the Bible, and turn to the Lord’s church. I shall be very happy to hear from you as often as you can write.
In Christian LOVE,
Men Mark Tumandan
--- On Sat, 3/28/09, Ron
From: Ron
Subject: Part one of your thought error
To: "men mark tumandan"
Date: Saturday, 28 March, 2009, 3:57 AM
Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called m you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel n — Note the word grace does not include manditory baptism in the sentence; in other words it doesn't say "you by the grace and baptism of Christ".
Gal 1:7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion o and are trying to pervert p the gospel of Christ.
Mk 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Note this does NOT say whoever does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned. It is your belief that Jesus is the only true savior that saves you not the act of baptism. You're saved even if you're not baptize although it's noted that it's something one should do as a public proclamation of faith.
Ro 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized b into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? This refers to the baptism through the word into Christ Jesus. The belief that Jesus is Lord and Savior through the word saves us.
Ro 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death c in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead d through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. e
6:1-8:39 In 3:21-5:21 Paul explains how God has provided for our redemption and justification. He next explains the doctrine of sanctification—the process by which believers grow to maturity in Christ. He treats this subject in three parts: (1) freedom from sin’s tyranny (ch. 6), (2) freedom from the law’s condemnation (ch. 7) and (3) life in the power of the Holy Spirit (ch. 8).
6:1 Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? This question arose out of what Paul had just said in 5:20: "Where sin increased, grace increased all the more."
6:2 died to sin. The reference is to an event in the past and is explained in v. 3.
6:3–4 The when and how of the Christian’s death to sin. In NT times baptism so closely followed conversion that the two were considered part of one event (see Ac 2:38 and note). So although baptism is not a means by which we enter into a vital faith relationship with Jesus Christ, it is closely associated with faith. Baptism depicts graphically what happens as a result of the Christian’s union with Christ, which comes with faith—through faith we are united with Christ, just as through our natural birth we are united with Adam. As we fell into sin and became subject to death in father Adam, so we now have died and been raised again with Christ—which baptism symbolizes.
6:3 know. Three key words in this chapter are "know" (here and in vv. 6, 9), "offer" (vv. 11, 13, 16, 19) and "obey" (vv. 12, 16–17).
6:4 buried with him through baptism into death. Amplified in vv. 5–7. through the glory of the Father. By the power of God. God’s glory is his divine excellence, his perfection. Any one of his attributes is a manifestation of his excellence. Thus his power is a manifestation of his glory, as is his righteousness (see 3:23 and note). Glory and power are often closely related in the Bible (see Ps 145:11; Col 1:11; 1Pe 4:11; Rev 1:6; 4:11; 5:12–13; 7:12; 19:1). live a new life. Amplified in vv. 8–10.
6:6 our old self. Our unregenerate self; what we once were. body of sin. The self in its pre-Christian state, dominated by sin. This is a figurative expression in which the old self is personified. It is a "body" that can be put to death. For the believer, this old self has been "rendered powerless" (see NIV text note) so that it can no longer enslave us to sin—whatever lingering vitality it may yet exert in its death throes.
6:7 has died. The believer’s death with Christ to sin’s ruling power (see v. 3). freed from sin. Not sinless, but free from sin’s shackles and power.
6:8 As resurrection followed death in the experience of Christ, so the believer who dies with Christ is raised to a new quality of life here and now. Resurrection in the sense of a new birth is already a fact, and it increasingly exerts itself in the believer’s life.
6:10 he died to sin once for all. In his death Christ (for the sake of sinners) submitted to the "reign" of sin (5:21); but his death broke the judicial link between sin and death, and he passed forever from the sphere of sin’s "reign." Having been raised from the dead, he now lives forever to glorify God. to God. For the glory of God.
6:11 count yourselves. The first step toward victory over sin in the life of believers (for the succeeding steps see note on vv. 12–13). They are dead to sin and alive to God, and by faith they are to live in the light of this truth. in Christ. The first occurrence in Romans of this phrase, which is found often in Paul’s writings. True believers are "in Christ" because they have died with Christ and have been raised to new life with him. See note on Eph 1:1.
6:12–13 A call for Christians to become in practice what they already are in their status before God—dead to sin (see vv. 5–7) and alive to God (see vv. 8–10). The second step toward victory over sin is refusal to let sin reign in one’s life (v. 12). The third step is to offer oneself to God (v. 13).
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” John 13:34-35
www.christiancommunitychurch.com
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